NOTE from AdminMan: I removed Dan's first post, since he has corrected it here.
Sorry, my apologies to jmlachance, the previous message should have read as follows:
In response to z-mac's assertions that Apple has abandoned the PPC, I must respond as I do not agree, and wonder if anyone who owns and operates a PPC-based Mac feels as if they have been abandoned by Apple.
z-mac, I think it's your definition of abandoned that is the giving me cause to differ. You say that once a manufacturer no longer supplies the operating system for a computer, it is abandoned. According to that definition of abandoned, that would be all PC-based computers, and not Apple's, as PC manufacturers do not supply the operating system, Microsoft does, and in the case of Linux, the user is responsible, not the manufacturer, ergo, they are abandoned at birth. Or, to put it in another light, only Apple, Sun, IBM, etc. are capable of abandoning their computers, as they are the only companies who supply both the computer and the OS.
Apple "obsoletes" a computer (Vintage, in Apple terminology) after a set amount of time, which means that they no longer have or will supply a reliable source of parts, as indeed Dell, HP and their ilk also do. I would wager that the end-of-life comes much quicker at Dell and Acer than it does at Apple. My six-year old PowerBook G4's hardware is still supported, my ten-year old G4 tower's is not, but the software on both of them IS. As to the software, Apple is still supporting the PPC in all the apps I already mentioned in the other thread (Safari, Mail, iLife, iWork, Aperture, FCE and others), as well as keeping the older OS up-to-date with the latest security patches, I don't see how that qualifies PPC-based Macs as abandoned either.
The fact that Apple still supports the applications and operating systems that PPC-based Macs use, as well as the hardware, makes your claim of abandonment sound like flamebait. The fact that Ubuntu is no longer being produced for PPC-based boards is not an indication of anything significant in terms of market-share or mind-share, as at least nine other distributions of Linux are still PPC-compatible, Debian, Fedora, and Red Hat Enterprise to name just a few.
The PPC itself is far from an abandoned architecture, it has simply evolved into a different space than personal computers - that of embedded controllers and high-performance computing. PPCs now power not only Xboxes and Nintendos, but Wiis, Gamecubes, Playstations, F-18s, ASIMO robots, satellite imaging systems, etc. Look up PowerPC on wikipedia for a general oveview of the current uses of the PPC.
Abandoned is a strong word.
Happy Mac'ing!
Dan
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z-mac, I think it's your definition of abandoned that is the giving me cause to differ. (...)
I make two assertions, and neither is especially insightful: a) PowerPC is a dead-end technology on the desktop; b) buying a used PowerPC Mac today is a poor value proposition for consumers when the price is high enough to buy an Intel Mac or build a Hackintosh. But I have indeed used the word "abandoned" to describe Apple's switch to Intel. This is because the OS no longer works on the old PowerPC architecture. In switching to Intel, Apple did what it had to do to survive. Three years after the switch to Intel, Apple has ceased to make OS X for ALL PowerPC computers -- even the most recent G5 products, which were not cheap computers (as I recall).
I see that "abandoned" may be interpreted to mean, "dumped its PowerPC line and all those users without offering assistance". That interpretation is clearly not true, given that Apple continues to provide the application support that you mention and must support the older products (including the OS) for a limited time as required by law.
As much as I like to "think different", I'm not keen to use "obsolete" as a verb. (o;
Apple no longer makes an OS for PowerPC technology and will not make a future OS for its old products. Snow Leopard cannot work on PowerPC Macs.
There is no upgrade path for owners of PowerPC Macs.
This is a marketing decision.
PowerPC as a product is not "dead". However, the fact that there are other markets for the PowerPC (embedded, server, X-Box, &c) is good for IBM but does nothing for people with PowerPC Macs.
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The fact that Ubuntu is no longer being produced for PPC-based boards is not an indication of anything significant in terms of market-share or mind-share, as at least nine other distributions of Linux are still PPC-compatible, Debian, Fedora, and Red Hat Enterprise to name just a few.
The Linux kernel is designed to work on almost anything. I have Linux running on an ARM-based computer right now. The fact that you can find Linux on PowerPC does not indicate that PowerPC is thriving as a desktop platform. I suppose NetBSD, Plan 9 and AmigaOS are keeping PowerPC alive too. (o;
Ubuntu is Linux "for the desktop" produced by a company that aims to become profitable. (o; Ubuntu is the most significant distribution of Linux. PowerPC is a legacy desktop CPU platform.
PowerPC may be supported for servers. Servers stay in service longer. Again, that does nothing for users with PowerPC Macs.
From the point of view of a Mac customer who bought one of the last PowerPC Macs, there may be a few years of good use remaining, with updates to the old OS and the applications you mention. However:
- there is no future for OS X on PowerPC
- PowerPC cannot run Windows
- no one is investing any new commercial effort to support PowerPC on the desktop
- it may be possible to run some form of Linux on PowerPC Macs, but it would be naive to expect these distributions to offer the commitment to the desktop and "ease of use" that Ubuntu has made to x86 and x86_64.
$500 to $700 could build a Hackintosh that would have a clear performance advantage over the G5 PowerPC. More respectably, that amount of money can buy a used Intel Mac Mini that offers many more OS possibilities than a PowerPC Mac, as well as a future.
I ought to have summarized better -- sorry, it was late. (o;
The justification that Apple offered the company switched to Intel entirely was (to paraphrase) that the PowerPC technology couldn't do what Intel's technology could do. (This, I note, after years of telling its customers that PowerPC was far better than Intel.) Call it finding a better dance partner or leaving a stricken vessel, but Apple "abandoned" the PowerPC platform in this sense.
Apple made the marketing decision to drop support for PowerPC in Snow Leopard. Only Apple provided a commercial desktop OS for PowerPC. By dropping PowerPC, Apple left its PowerPC owners with no future options with OS X and no other OS alternatives. In this sense, Apple "abandoned" PowerPC Mac owners.
In the sense that Apple continues to provide security updates to the old version of OS X that operates the PowerPC Macs, and updates the Apple applications for that version of the OS, Apple has not "abandoned" PowerPC Macs.
Apple stopped producing PPC-based computers over three years ago. Your use of the word, no matter how you couch it, is nothing but inflammatory, for the reasons I have already spelled out. Please look up the word in a dictionary, as you do not seem to understand its meaning.
What I really want to know is, does anybody who owns a PPC-based computer feels they have been abandoned, besides you, z-mac?
Happy Mac'ing
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Apple stopped producing PPC-based computers over three years ago. Your use of the word, no matter how you couch it, is nothing but inflammatory, for the reasons I have already spelled out. Please look up the word in a dictionary, as you do not seem to understand its meaning.
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You made a good point and I accepted part of your reasoning.
As for your taunt... I do have a couple of reputed dictionaries and my English is at least passable. Despite having access to the World Wide Web, I also haven't forgotten what some good people taught me about civility and forbearance.
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What I really want to know is, does anybody who owns a PPC-based computer feels they have been abandoned, besides you, z-mac?
All respondents must demonstrate a 90th percentile score in reading comprehension as measured by the Millar Scale. (o;
To be another person to offer an opinion.
I would probably be one to use the word abandoned when describing Apple using PPC as well. I would find no fault in the way z-mac would be using the word in a conversation. And, as far as Apple offering new PPC machines for sale, yes Apple has abandoned PPC as its future architecture and platform on which it is now basing its business, and essentially with 12.6 telling PPC owners that you should start saving up for a new machine if you haven't switched already. And selling new hardware helps Apple stay in business, too, right?
But reading your posts, Dan, you are absolutely right in that Apple has not abandoned the PPC user in providing updates to the OS and to key pieces of software that most users would be using on a daily basis. 3 out of 4 users in my home are running PPC machines. We're able to read/write/send email, surf the web, do word-processing, enjoy music and YouTube, etc, and do that on these machines that have continued to be supported softwarewise by Apple. So as a user, I don't feel abandoned by Apple (yet).
I have started to see a trend, though, for software not to be considered compatible for 10.4 - a number of times the "latest" version of software on sites like MacZot aren't compatible with 10.4 (or PPC, in some cases).
If I recall correctly - and I'm being a bit lazy to not check z-macs original comments on the original for sale thread - I think he was counselling to consider whether you would really want to spend much on a G5, as the PPC is abandoned tech. If you want a computer for the basics, and you can get a good deal on a PPC machine, sure. But I again would agree with his comments in this thread - after a point, for the same price you can get an Intel based Mac, with the possibilities of booting both Mac OS and a Windows OS, etc. For me, looking at upgrading the other 3 PPC machines, I've decided against buying anything else PPC based. I'm only going to buy an Intel Mac as an upgrade path, be it used or new. I don't see good value in putting any more money into PPC - I see it as a dead-end as an Apple user.
I appreciate the posts and opinions provided by both of you regularly on this board.
I hope no one has been inflammed too much, other than to provoke some good Mac discussion.
I hope that the jabs related to dictionaries and the like can be set aside, and that the good-natured MUGOO relationship can resume, and we can all get back to happy mac'ing! :D
Happier New Year to you and to all MUGOO-folk!
(or should that be a new thread? :D)
-Mike
Sorry for the taunt, z-mac, that wasn't nice, and I was being overly pedantic - nothing new there! I was hoping to get a few more lively responses - which seems to be working. I just wish there was a better word than abandoned... and I did look it up just to be sure I wasn't missing the point.
I agree that I would not go looking for a PPC for my next computer, but there are some pretty good deals on g4/g5s out there, and the Macs that house them are still, for the most part, in good shape and still supported by Apple - both hardware and software.
I also noted that z-mac never used the word abandoned in reference to the PPC, he was actually talking about Vista!!! Now, as much as I don't like MS' business practices, I wouldn't even agree with that. In fact. I was trying to think of an analogous situation where some technology had been abandoned. Did Sony abandon BETA? Have American carmakers abandoned rear-wheel drive? Has NASA abandoned sending men to the moon? See what I'm getting at here?
On another tangent - How surprised were you when Apple stepped up with Intel? Now, consider how surprised would you be to know Apple is still developing on the PPC... not that I have any inside info, I'm just sayin'!
Happy New Year, and Happy Mac'ing
Dan
Okay, I just checked, and z-mac did say Apple abandoned the PPC as well, and now I can't find the thread where he said MS abandoned Vista, but I found it yesterday - the search engine on here is a bit moody - as am I, apparently. Don't know why this "abandonment" thing gets my goat up, but it does. And I heartily agree with z-mac's assertion that when weighing a used PowerMac G5 versus a used Intel mini, go with the Mini!
Go figure!
Happy Mac'ing!!!
Dan
It was interesting to see Apple have to do some spin doctoring after bashing "Wintel" boxes for so long - fried "bunny-men" and all.
I, too, like z-mac, had to develop some amnesia re: what you've been telling all of your PC buddies about the processor of choice.
Though the PPC was being left behind. There didn't seem to be any new competitive commercial product in the pipeline, if my memory serves me correctly.
Especially in the laptop environment. Repeat 3x: there never was a G5 Powerbook.
The AIM group had dissolved or was dissolving, with IBM and Motorola bickering about backside caches or some old code thing backsiding on the fresh PPC architecture.
Going with Intel gave Apple a lot of pluses.
-you get to run on the same processors that your OS competition is running on - so now you can more directly compare Apples to road apples
-you get the larger benefit of economies of scale for those processors -bringing down the prices of one of your key components and helping to reduce one of your key complaints ("Macs cost more than PCs")
-being one of the world's largest computer manufacturers and hence processor buyers, being able to have a hand in the development of the processors/have a better arrangement with the manufacturer - earlier access and acquisition of top-of-the-line product
-laptop-grade processor lines
-probably easier for software developers to now code for both OSs, after the 2nd heartache of going from PPC to Intel after already going from 690x0 to PPC
-eventually, allowing your mac to dual boot both OSs, so Mac users can have the best of both worlds as needed.
I was surprised, but pleasantly so, seeing the all of these benefits. And between Intel and AMD, Intel seemed to be the better of the two to saddle-up with.
Glad to see you and z-mac agree on points as well.
Have another egg nog before the dairy producers abandon the beverage for another 11 months. :D
-Mike
Have another egg nog before the dairy producers abandon the beverage for another 11 months. :D
Egad NO!!! Don't say abandonned!! Now we may hear from dairy producers and retailers!!
I think abandoned is a perfectly appropriate word. They aren't supporting "legacy" systems, so you have to buy new hardware/software (sound like Microsoft strategy to you?) Highest OS version that will run on PPC is OSX10.4. I had a hard enough time finding a copy of OSX10.3, now I have to look for OSX10.4, because I'm starting to get more of those "software needs upgrading messages" on the internet. And there is no guarantee that getting 10.4 will be a cure, as it is already considered ancient by web designers who don't care about backward compatibility. I can't download music from Apple without upgrading iTunes, but I can't upgrade iTunes on this operating system.
My computing needs have not changed in several years, but isp's are trying to make me buy new equipment so I can get more pop-up ads!